Archetypes Still Don’t Matter!

DumbledoreIt’s no secret that I am not a fan of archetypes and that I am not convinced of their utility in business. In my original post on this subject – “Archetypes Don't Matter!” – I said:

“Patrick [Lambe] has one set of archetypes and Katie Altham has some 100 archetypes which are quite different. Her archetypes use names from mythology, like Apollo, Zeus, Dionysus, Hermes and Aphrodite. Now this is all well and good as an attention grabbing exercise and even as a bit of fun, but does it have a grounded evidence base? Both Patrick and Katie claim it does however before I am convinced I would like to see the underlying data. It all seems too simplistic to me. Further it appears to me to be at best an extension and simplification of Carl Jung’s work, and at worst little better than pop psychology or even horoscopy”.

My position hasn’t changed, particularly when I discover on the actKM Knowledge-Base these two gems – “Star Types ” by Professor Han van Loon, and “'I' is for Insect ” by Arthur Shelley. Now it seems we can have insects, bumble bees and lions if we don’t like Greek gods. If Greek gods, animals, or Patrick Lambe’s habits like lust and avarice don’t appeal, then we can substitute blue stars, orange stars, red giants, and even brown dwarfs! But wait, there’s more.

A cursory poke around the World Wide Web with the key word archetype provides 3,140,000 hits. If none of the above archetypes satisfy us we can Dumbledore, Harry Potter, and Snape; or Sleeping Beauty and the Wicked Fairy; or even Darth Vader, Chewbacca and Yoda! Now we are getting somewhere. I can just see my clients reaching into their very deep pockets to part with a few thousand dollars so the consultancy I recommend, which won't be HolisTech® Pty Ltd , can categorise everyone in the organisation, and seek to change negative behaviours (archetypes?) into positive ones!

What am I missing? I don’t want to be absolutist in my position, and I’m trying to have an open mind, but I just don’t get it! 30 plus years ago in my undergraduate degree I remember studying the works of Carl Jung and Sigmund Freud. I remember Freud’s “Totem and Taboo” and Jung’s “The Psychology of Individuation” as being interesting, and even influential in some circles. Today of course both publications are of little more than historical interest. Why do these moderen archetypes have credibility and how do they help us? Why are they any better than Jung’s original archetypes? Where are they best used and what problems do they solve? Until these questions, and some others, are answered I remain unconvinced of their utility. For me archetypes still do not matter!

Regards Graham



Re: Archetypes Still Don’t Matter!

My contribution to this debate is at Archetypes, Foolishness and False Categorisation .

One other note the method Patrick uses is open source and can be downloaded from our web site (although knowing Pattick he will have developed it)

You might also want to note that we have already combined archetypes with network analysis - using it as a means to reveal different network perceptions.

Re: Archetypes Still Don’t Matter!

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your contribution to this debate. I have taken the liberty to insert the title of your response into your text and provide an active hyperlink. I hope you don’t mind.

First I would agree there is the potential to mix archetype with stereotype, and that I have been guilty of that. I note however the respective definitions below (taken from the Macquarie Dictionary).

archetype archetypal, archetypical /ahkuh'tipikuhl/, adjective. /'ahkuhtuyp/ noun

1. a model or first form; the original pattern or model after which a thing is made.

2. (in Jungian psychology) an inherited mode of perception or response linked to the instincts, which is part of the collective unconscious. [L, from Gk: first-moulded, original]

stereotype stereotyper, noun. stereotypic /.stereeuh'tipik, .stear-/, stereotypical /.stereeuh'tipikuhl, .stear-/, adjective. stereotyped, adjective. /'stereeuhtuyp, 'stear-/ noun, verb, stereotyped, stereotyping. noun

1. a process of making metal plates to use in printing by taking a mould of composed type or the like in papier-mache or other material and then taking from this mould a cast (plate) in type metal.

2. a plate made by this process.

3. a set form; convention; standardised idea or concept. verb (t)

4. to make a stereotype of.

5. to give a fixed form to.

I suggest that point 3 of the stereotype definition allows archetypes to be incorporated in stereotypes, and this is the very danger I am rallying against (as you are). I note in your document Archetype Creation (page 3) you create archetypes from stereotypes, which suggests archetypes are “meta-stereotypes”! It certainly leaves it open for archetypes to be misused as stereotypes.

I also note you specifically say that:

Archetypes are not universal. The archetypes we use are not Jungian archetypes. They are specific to a context and to a community. Archetypes between communities may be similar but are never identical because they are grounded in the reality of that community. Finding universal archetypes is not a goal of this method, because we believe it would be counter-productive and even dangerous”.

This means we are in complete agreement for my major objection.

I would be interested in finding about a bit more about your combined network analysis/archetype method mix. Does it, for example, show clusters of archetypes? Do some archetypes exhibit Tertius Gaudens or Tertius Iungens behaviours, or is the level of abstraction too high?

Regards Graham

Re: Archetypes Still Don’t Matter!

The fact that we derive archetypes from the attributes of steriotypes does not make them a subset - it simiply says let us take the surface filters and look below that. However I think we are generally agreed on this.

As to the use of archetypes with SNA - once we have created them then we can use a normal SNA process with different communities asking them questions about how the archetypes relate. This allows us to create mutiple SNA models for each community.

Re: Archetypes Still Don’t Matter!

Hi Dave,

How about providing a social network analysis diagram or two that makes use of archetypes with some interpretation?  The use of archetypes should make the data and organisation anonymous; alternatively take the labels off and provide some "veiled commentary".  I'll provide you with full access on this site if you want to do it here.  Alternatively just provide a link to your site.  I know my network analysis readers would be interested.

Regards Graham